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Barrier Busting
The Barrier Busting podcast offers insights, strategies, and inspiring stories that explore practical tips and powerful tools for unlocking our full potential.
Barrier Busting
Finding New Paths in Midlife Adventures
What if you feel a strong urge to change course in midlife Join me, Matt Brooks, as I sit down with Sarah Hackenberg, who shares her extraordinary journey from a music major to a 20-year veteran in library science, and now a thriving entrepreneur. Sarah's story is one of adaptability and resilience, showcasing how skills honed as a school librarian can seamlessly transition into the world of entrepreneurship with her business, Grace in Cycles LLC.
Sarah's tale of transformation is a testament to the power of embracing change and the wisdom garnered from two decades in a challenging career. We explore how her ability to adapt to fluctuating school environments has equipped her with the confidence needed to tackle the entrepreneurial world. Moreover, we delve into the topic of ageism, discussing the vital role of experience and wisdom in society and how we can shift cultural perspectives to value these assets. Sarah's reflections offer an inspiring look at how our priorities and expertise evolve with age, encouraging listeners to pursue new endeavors with conviction.
As we wrap up our conversation, Sarah opens up about the emotional challenges of stepping into unfamiliar territories, particularly in midlife, and the strategies she uses to maintain focus and optimism. From navigating social media marketing to leveraging motivational resources, Sarah's story is filled with powerful strategies for overcoming doubt and embracing new paths. With compelling statistics on midlife entrepreneurship, we conclude with a celebration of the potential for success at any age, urging listeners to follow their passions beyond conventional career boundaries.
Are you feeling stuck? Is something holding you back? Are there obstacles in your way? Well, let's smash through those obstacles so that you can live your best life. Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder of Matt Brooks Coaching, and I'm fascinated with how people overcome barriers and achieve success. Join me for insights, strategies and inspiring stories as we explore practical tips and powerful tools to unlock your full potential. This is the Barrier Busting Podcast. All right, welcome everybody. This is Matt Brooks. Once again, welcome you to the Barrier Busting Podcast.
Speaker 1:We've been talking about pivoting, or I've been talking about pivoting, and, as promised, I now have a series of guests coming on, people that have actually done it, who, can, you know, shed some light. We've been talking about what the textbooks say about pivoting and then my own approach a little bit, but we're gonna hear from them about their approach, their challenges, how they came to make the decision in the first place, which I think is the most important part. So I'm very excited now to have a few guests in a row and, just so you know, heads up, after a few weeks I'm going to have a professional recruiter on to talk to us about what we should know from that perspective. But for today, I have a really unique pivot Like this is one I never would have thought of in a million years and it's, I think, very, very cool. My guest today is Sarah Hackenberg, who owns and operates her own business as a professional organizer. Did you even know that was a thing? I didn't, but it is.
Speaker 1:After majoring in music at Vassar College and a brief stint singing semi-professionally in Austria, sarah went back to school to study her other passion, library science. Receiving her master's degree in library and information science from Long Island University, sarah spent 20 years as a librarian and educator in the schools and, as such, has taught hundreds and hundreds of children and adults the lifelong skills they need to find and use quality information. Realizing that she had goals beyond her original career dream, sarah left teaching after 20 years to pursue operating her own business as a professional organizer, opening Grace in Cycles LLC. To help people organize their past, present and future. Sarah offers an empathetic and efficient approach to optimizing her clients' space and time. She is a member of the National Association of Productivity and Organizing Professionals and the Institute for Challenging Disorganization. I love that one. I got to hear about that one. You can find more about Sarah and her business by visiting wwwgraceincyclescom. Sarah, it is great to have you here, welcome.
Speaker 2:Thanks, glad to be here, matt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, professional organizer. Like I said, I didn't even know this was a thing. And not only is it a thing, but you have national organizations, right? Talk about that. Well, we'll get into that in a minute. Let's start first with your original career. So you went into library science and I know several people in that industry and that industry has gone through a ton of changes. So when we're talking about pivoting, you pivoted from being a singer to going into library science and you start out in a business that, at the time you started, was pretty much all about books and records and CDs and things like that. And over the 20 years you did it, there were massive changes to how libraries work. Right, talk about what kind of changes took place, how you had to embrace technology and how you adapted or tolerated those changes. Give us an idea about all that. I'm sure there's a lot there.
Speaker 2:Well, it did change a lot when I started, so I've been a school librarian at the elementary level. When I started, my first school still had a card catalog at the elementary level when, I started my first school still had a card catalog the paper version Love it.
Speaker 1:I remember those vividly.
Speaker 2:Absolutely A big part of my childhood, but pretty antiquated even in 2003 when I started. And you know, 20 years later, not only was the catalog for our physical items because we still did have physical items all online, but you're dealing with databases and you're dealing with, even at the elementary level, talking to kids about how to differentiate good and bad information on the internet, and it's a wild rodeo out there on the internet and there's a lot of education still needed, which I actually found very interesting about continuing to be a librarian in this day and age.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I mean we were always taught as kids and I'm an old guy, but we were always taught as kids. You know, don't believe everything you read, and that concept is now on steroids with the Internet. But I mean you probably. I mean I could just imagine how much hair you pulled out of your head, you know, going from card catalog and the type of organization in a library that you had to having digital options that you had. I mean, figure out the software to loan out digital things and get them back or whatever you had to do. I mean there were really massive changes in the last 20 years, am I?
Speaker 2:right, massive changes, but so much of that is automated that it really that end of it of managing it is not the headache you might imagine.
Speaker 2:There's software out there for all that stuff and whether you're circulating an electronic book or a print book, that's push was just the constant education of kids and adults that libraries and librarians are still relevant in the Internet age. You know, that was actually probably the most challenging thing that I ran into was just people like hey, it's on the Internet, why do we need a library anymore? Sure, people like hey, it's on the internet, why do we need a library anymore? But the truth is that the internet has only increased the amount of information we can access, and so the need to differentiate good and bad information just got more and more important. And it's harder, at least with books. To your point, even a book that doesn't have great quality, it still went through a publishing process, right, and this is not the case with the internet. Websites have no publisher or editor that runs some sort of grammar check or research to double check all their facts, copy editing and and it's a true point, especially with news now.
Speaker 1:I mean, there was a time where it did not go out until it got across an editor's desk, and I always think of Ben Bradley with the Washington Post during the Nixon, the whole Watergate thing. Nothing went into that paper until he was confident that it was that what he was hearing was real. There was always that buffer, and that buffer doesn't exist anymore, which makes it even. And, of course, I've got a young son trying to teach him how to differentiate. So before we move on because we're here, can you give us a little quick advice about what, how to differentiate between garbage and real information, or how to process what we're seeing? Because now we're having things go by us and rapid fire on Tic Tac and Tic Toc, excuse me and Instagram and other things, and you know everything looks good. So how do you know what's real and what's bullshit?
Speaker 2:It is a huge, huge challenge. And look, there are pros and cons to the day and age in which we live. Right, the opportunity to hear immediate news from people on the ground has played incredible roles in things like, you know, freedom movements and rights and human rights emergencies that immediate information is great. Emergencies that immediate information is great when you have a minute. Beyond that emergency, I think the biggest thing to pay attention to is just whatever is you're seeing on TikTok, you need to take with at least one grain of salt and see if you can verify it any other way. I like to say a block of salt. Yeah, you're not wrong. And unfortunately, even the verification can be challenging, because information is picked up from one source and then spread so quickly that it's easy to verify, find a second or third source that say the same information. Then you need to look at credibility of the source.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I also add to that, if I can, and tell me if I'm wrong, but if it sounds at all gossipy, if it sounds at all gossipy, ignore it. That's my rule of thumb, because the thing about, you know, social media in the early days was a way to democratize information so people could speak, they could speak out, they could call people out. But the problem is, calling people out became like fun and so we started demolishing people that really didn't deserve to be demolished. So I I I say, if it sounds at all gossipy, ignore it. Right, that's my I think that's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's another good filter to use.
Speaker 1:Okay, well it is. It is a jungle out there now. It's the wild wild West and trying to discern what's real and what isn't. And even with the major news work networks, I used to be a news junkie and I, I almost can't even watch or read anymore. I, I, you know it changes from day to day. So what is the truth? What is the truth? We just don't know anymore. So let's all right, we could talk about this for three days, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:So let's move on to get us closer to where we want to be today. First, what did you learn in those 20 years of education that you've taken with you into your new life? I mean, you have a lot of life experience now. What does that allow you to bring the table as a small business operator and as a professional organizer?
Speaker 2:Well, one thing just a reality about being an elementary school librarian is that you frequently shifted school buildings. So that meant I regularly was meeting new people, new groups of students, new teachers. I was walking into new spaces and having to assess how well they matched my vision and goals for the population. So that gave me a lot of confidence, certainly gave me a lot of practice in creating visions and then paying attention to the details and making them happen, and I think that's huge as a business owner. And then honestly, just with age, I think some confidence comes with that, some shifting of goals and some awareness of what I wanted in my 30s is maybe not what I want in my 50s. I have different priorities now. I've definitely become a good problem solver. You have to get creative in education to make things work for your kids. So all those things are serving me well as I start out on my new business.
Speaker 1:Well, I think you're right.
Speaker 1:I think just your comment on the heels of me doing a show on ageism and pivoting in your 50s. And I talk about how most cultures revere older people, but we have gotten to a point where we're just throwing them out and that's a lot of experience and expertise to just, you know, discard. And now that people are living longer and healthier lives, we need to embrace older people and that wisdom I mean when I and I say that when we were young we would laugh at old people, we would roll our eyes at old people, but we sought them out because we knew they had answers to things we had no clue about. And we've kind of lost that in this world. And I'm going to be banging this topic home a lot in this podcast because it's personal for me and I know it's personal for you and there's a lot of value in taking up 30 years of experience and applying it to something else. So I'm going to be I'm going to be a bit of a pain in the butt with people on this one because it's personal.
Speaker 2:It's so true. I love, though, that remember when someone was 40, we gave them an over the hill party.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:And now 40 is like. Well, I'm just coming into my my best time and I think maybe 60 is comparable age, but no one gets an over the hill party anymore. So I do appreciate that change in attitude towards aging.
Speaker 1:Well, let's hope it continues to change.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You came to a place where you realized you needed a change. You've been teaching for 20 years, and so let's let's talk about this a minute, because I think this is the whole point of pivoting is coming to that place and realizing something does need to change in your life, and you're not sure what. Um, what? First of all, give us a general idea of what was happening that created the frustration or the discomfort or whatever it was that led you to make this change or want to make a change. Not, we're not specifically at professional organizing yet, but you're becoming aware that something needs to change. Talk about that process, that phase.
Speaker 2:Well, look, not only has librarianship changed drastically in 20 years, so has education.
Speaker 2:I think a large part of it has to do with the emphasis on testing and test scores connected with funding and I understand schools need funding right but unfortunately that emphasis on testing, in my opinion, has become a big obstacle in the way of teachers and administrators trying to give kids what they need at where they are at. I think the other big change is that society in general has begun to expect more and more from schools. Schools are providing safety nets for so many things, from basics like food and clothing, and there's only so much that schools and teachers can give. Now, for the last few years, I was working in a district where I saw so many kids coming into school, dealing with food insecurity, dealing with trauma that wasn't being addressed, dealing with a lack of parental support, and I worked with a team of teachers whom I admired so much. They were giving 110% every single day, working outside of the school day constantly, and the challenge was that we all knew we still weren't giving these kids everything they needed.
Speaker 1:You know it's funny, you you? The first point that you brought up and I think these are, that's a really interesting point that's a middle school teacher in a district where there were a lot of people from Columbia. Most of the kids did not have a full grasp of English and he was the testing phase. That second half of the year would cause him a lot of anxiety and sleepless nights because he wanted to be the guy that helped them where they were and unfortunately they were forced to be in a place they weren't necessarily ready for and it caused all kinds of stress.
Speaker 1:And I agree, I think it's a complicated thing to how do we assess schools and give them funding. But this is not necessarily, in my opinion, the approach and I'm not an educator but this is not the approach that's going to really help kids in the long run. And it does tie your hands, as a teacher, from wanting to do the things you can and you know you can do to help that those students grow from where they are right now. Right, I'm sure that I'm sure there were a lot of days you got in your car and drove home yelling and screaming in the car, right.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, yes, oh my goodness. And I know that I wasn't the only one. Um and again, I I've worked with teachers for 20 years.
Speaker 2:They're an amazing giving, generous, creative, problem solvers, compassionate educated group of people, they are heroes and, like you said, though, unfortunately often their hands are tied to meet kids where they're at, and that takes a toll. It takes a toll a lot of extra demands, extra pressures, just as far as all that the kids needed and therefore challenges they had focusing in the classroom, which is an additional challenge for kids or for teachers at that point. So, at the end of the day, I you know, teachers are checking in on each other, and I'm hearing people more and more say hey, how was your day? Oh, well, I survived. And I occasionally was saying well, I survived. And that is the thing that I started questioning, and I was noting my exhaustion driving home and my frustration level, which was not just dissipating, and I started to question myself. You know, I want more than just surviving my days. I believe in education, I believe in the public education system, even though it is flawed. However, as an individual, I thought it was time for a change. I needed more.
Speaker 1:Well, and if it's eating you up, you're not going to serve those kids well either. So great, okay. Well, this so it was, I'm sure without getting into it, as I'm sure it was gut wrenching to go through, it was such a hard decision.
Speaker 2:I um you know at that point, 20 years as an educator. You're very dedicated to the kids.
Speaker 2:You want to be part of the team. You do love your kids and you want to support your teeth, your fellow teachers. Um, it was a very hard decision to leave, but at the end of the day, you know, it's interesting. I have great examples in my parents, both of whom went back to college later in life to start a second career. My father actually then, further on down his professional life, was downsized and decided to open his own business to finish out his professional life, and so I have that example in front of me that doing something different is possible. You know, it's not the same that people work in the same field with the same employer for 30 years. That doesn't happen that much anymore.
Speaker 1:It's one. If you listen to my series, the shows before this. We're taping this before some of my pivoting shows come out, but I talk about that. I talk. Those days my father was that he worked for a company for his whole career. They took care of him, they took care of his family. They took care of my mom's health insurance for a solid decade after my father passed. Those days are gone, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's not the way of the world.
Speaker 1:No, all right. Well, this is. I appreciate your being very upfront and honest with us about what had to be a very difficult decision. We're going to take a quick break and when we're going to come back, we're going to get right into being a professional organizer. How you came to decide to do that and what it is to start your own business. We will be back in just a second.
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Speaker 1:Okay, all right, let's talk about becoming a professional organizer. I mean, like I said, I didn't even know that was a thing. I'm glad it's a thing because I think we all need it, but like I didn't know it was a thing, so how did you find this? I mean, I'm sure you've decided I'm going to make a pivot. Now what? What's my pivot going to be? So you know, fill us in on the process of how you started thinking through ideas and then landed on professional organizer.
Speaker 2:It was interesting because initially I just sort of started job hunting in a traditional way, you know, looking at job ads, reworking my resume, trying to figure out what other job was being advertised that I could do. But along at the same time I was also thinking, gee, I maybe just want to do something completely different, and slowly I began to put together a list of well, if I was going to have my own business, what would that look like? And I mean, my goodness, it was everything from being a florist to, you know, opening a bookstore cafe, because, hey, I am a librarian right, right, opening a bookstore cafe because, hey, I am a librarian, right Right.
Speaker 2:And I also really thought, OK, if I am going to do something completely different, what do I want? And I think that's important. Again, like I said, you know, in midlife your priorities are different and I realized that I wanted some autonomy, I wanted ownership, I wanted flexibility in my life, I wanted to feel like I was being creative, that I was problem solving, and so that definitely led me to okay, yep, I would like to be my own business, my own boss on my own business. And on my list was actually organizer. On my list was actually organizer.
Speaker 2:You know, I had known enough people who said I don't know what to do with my garage, I wish I had someone to help me sort through this. What a mess. Or people who went through the downsizing process and all the challenges there. I knew a couple of people who had hired someone, but it wasn't until I started researching that I realized oh, professional organizing is an industry. There are national organizations, there are standards, there's no regulation of it. But it was really eye opening and a wonderful feeling to discover these groups, discover people who had been working in this field for 20 years, who would put together codes of ethics to say that this is important. What we do, we are going to people's homes. They're allowing us to see messes or things that maybe they're embarrassed about or things that are overwhelming them. This is a big deal and we take that very seriously. We take it with a great deal of confidentiality and we're going to hold each other to these standards.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice. It's very similar with the coaching profession, you know the same thing not regulated, but holds itself to high standards, with a code of ethics and confidentiality in particular. And I same thing with my journey in a lot of ways. You'll hear me in this show. I talk about how I came to my decision and I couldn't figure out what to do, and then I decided you know what I'm going to. I'm going to stop thinking about what I should do because I was getting nowhere, and start making some lists of criteria, and I started with the what will I absolutely not put up with anymore. I started with that list and then I made other lists. You know what's interesting to me? And creativity, a lot of those things. Autonomy, the things you talked about, were very interesting to me too, and you know we only get one life, so if we're going to make a shift, we might as well go for it, right, we might as well go for the gold.
Speaker 1:So you know it's a huge change from the structured days of teaching, though, to go into running your own business. I have to know this myself. You know, teaching is sometimes chaotic, or I mean teaching is kind of structured. It can be chaotic, of course, but your day is structured. Running your own business can be at times chaotic and at times just dull, tedious, not much to do, the phone's not ringing Like. You've got to motivate yourself. Okay, I'm going to do another couple of posts on Instagram today, or whatever, and it's very easy to just stay in your jammies drinking coffee as opposed to. You know, you don't have to punch a time clock, you don't have to be anywhere. How has this transition been for you in terms of having to motivate yourself, not have a boss to answer to? I mean, talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2:I mean transition barely scratches the surface, right? I mean it is just night and day.
Speaker 1:Glacial shift. Right Glacial shift right Glacial shift.
Speaker 2:That sounds appropriate. Yes, I mean. For a long time we were experts in our field. We walked into our day knowing what was going to happen, knowing that even if we got some curveballs, we had the education and experience to handle it Like no big deal.
Speaker 1:It's going to be good. You're so, you're so hit the nail on the head for me. Because, you know, in the old days I'd walk into a room. Everybody knew what my role, my title and my reputation was. Now I walk into a room, nobody knows me and I, and it's, it's a real challenge for me to like, like, suddenly be the nobody, having to sell themselves again. You know, right, is it? The same for you.
Speaker 2:It's. It's humbling in a way. I mean, again, within our fields, within our circles, people knew us and even if they didn't, we're meeting new people, we know who we are and we know all that we bring to the table, and so there's just an extra level of confidence there. So, yeah, humbling, sometimes frustrating, often overwhelming, but I will say that I'm learning so many new things that I also find it exhilarating.
Speaker 1:Right, it is too. It's like, it's like you know and and I don't know about you, but you know I'm older than you and I love it when I, when I, when I learned some new skill, and nail it because I'm like, see, I still got it Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean it's almost a new lease on life.
Speaker 1:So so you're making the transition pretty well. I mean, you seem very happy with it, right?
Speaker 2:Relatively. I mean, you know, there are days when I'm giving myself extra pep talks or putting in that you know, be confident. Playlist.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So we all have tools we use to, you know, keep our spirits up.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure we all have them, but we all should. That's one thing we should.
Speaker 2:I am actually not kidding. I have created multiple playlists that I play when I need a certain something or just I'm feeling energized. I want to keep that spirit going. I think that's helpful.
Speaker 1:Absolutely smart. Good for you, but I'll bet you've, like we said, you had to learn a few new things starting a new business. All right, so let's start with what has surprised you, what took you by surprise.
Speaker 2:I'll be honest, the best surprise has been how generous people are. Oh, as I've networked whether it's been people within my field or not I have found people to be very welcoming, very supportive, and whether they think it's unusual to be so I'm 50, to be 50 and starting a new business or not no one has ever made me feel that way. I'm networking with other small business owners and I think there's just a general understanding and appreciation for anybody who's willing to go through it, and that's been a great community to touch base with.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. That's awesome, okay. So now, what has taken you out of your comfort zone? And I'll start this myself, because you know, I'm good at creating systems, I'm good at the work that I do, but marketing is not my thing, and so that's taken me out of my comfort zone and challenges me on a daily basis, especially marketing over social media. How about you? What has taken you out of your comfort zone?
Speaker 2:I have to say social media too, and the thing is, I very specifically chose not to be on any social media personally ever, so I didn't have a Facebook.
Speaker 1:So, hello world, here's Sarah.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. So navigating social media and, as you point out, um, it's essential to market ourselves through social media as one Avenue, um navigating, that has been very interesting. I still have a lot to learn there.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know. I'm just curious how you've approached it, because my approach is, every time I get frustrated, I walk away and I say I'm going right back in tomorrow and I just keep myself going in there and thank God for YouTube, because there's so many instructional videos on YouTube and if you're out there making those videos, god bless you, we need you. So, all right, let's get into this. There are a lot of trying moments when you jump into a new venture, right, and I mean, and there are tough times and a lot of confusion, a lot of self-doubt. Did I make the right decision? Did I fuck this up? What am I, you know, what am I doing with my life? And then you turn and, if you're like me, you go yeah, I made the right decision. This is odd. I'm going to do this thing right. So give us an idea.
Speaker 1:For those people that are out there considering pivoting, for those people that are out there thinking you know, I'm just really not happy. I want to think about maybe doing something else, but the security of the job is something I need. How do you cope with those moments of confusion and self-doubt and insecurity and worry and all that? How do you cope. And I know you said you got your playlists, but it also it can't be just the music you play on your you know it's got to come from down deep somehow. What are your, what's your approach, your methodology?
Speaker 2:Well, number one is surround yourself by positive people who believe in you. You know you need to have a core group of people who, when you're feeling down, you can call up and say I just need to vent. Who are when you're feeling down or doubting yourself, can say but this is great, look what you've achieved already. You should be so proud, I'm proud of you. You know, I think that in general, we don't say that to each other enough and you need the positive and I would cut out people who are naysayers. You just need to take a break from those people for a while.
Speaker 1:Funny. I'm going to do a show on that at some point in the future, you know setting boundaries and cutting people out. I I'm very anti ghosting. I think ghosting is one of the worst scourges that on our planet. Now I'm disgusted by it, but I don't have any problem telling somebody hey look, you know it's. It's not working.
Speaker 3:So all the best I'll.
Speaker 1:let's check up. Let's check in with each other at Christmas and say hi, you know, and just cut those, not feeling you have to be but. But I think you're right, you got to have a community of people that are your cheerleaders. That's not always easy to find, but I'm glad you have one. Are there any other ways that you deal with this within yourself, when you have doubt and confusion?
Speaker 2:I mean, you're right, not everyone has those people in their lives. I am a librarian, so you know I definitely seek out motivational books. I have a wall of quotations that I add to regularly, you know, just to keep reminding myself, because it's so easy. Working as a small business person can be very isolating and so easy to get in your head and just stay there with your blinders on so to look at this wall and be able to pick out, you know, one quote today that's like oh right, okay, thanks, mark Twain. You know, catch the trade winds in your sails, go out there, explore, dream. It's not trite. I think there have been times in my life when I found motivational sayings to be a little less applicable to my life. At least that's what I thought.
Speaker 1:You might've rolled your eyes at a few. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe. But here I am and finding a lot of strength and just good reminders. We all need reminders to stay the course and keep believing and keep trying.
Speaker 1:It's such a great thing to say to people and, by the way, I have also been a little annoyed over the years at very fluffy positive thinking and these sayings and these quotes. But what's great about today is you can find I found a deck of cards about affirmations for a badass and they, the the all the affirmations are basically saying what the old ones say, but rewritten and using the F word a lot. So I get a laugh out of it. It really helps me out. But you know, you mentioned there's a real excitement to doing something completely different in midlife and that, as intimidating as it can be, it can be really cool. You know, and I and I agree 100% there is something that I personally feel fired up in ways that I've not been in a long time.
Speaker 1:Let's close this show with just a brief discussion about embracing midlife changes, because that scares the shit out of people, but it shouldn't necessarily. If you hear my show from a week ago or whenever it's going to air, I give some numbers that are from the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor about how successful people in their 50s and 60s are at starting their own businesses. In fact, if you start a business in your 50s, you're twice as likely to succeed than someone starting in their 30s. If you start in your 60s, you are three times as likely to succeed than someone starting in their 30s. If you start in your 60s, you are three times as likely to succeed. So there's something exciting about this and, yes, it's intimidating to make a change in midlife, but it's also, you know, when you get to midlife.
Speaker 1:Eric Erickson's theory of development says that midlife is about generativity versus stagnation. You have a choice you are either going to stagnate or you're going to be generative. You're going to be giving, You're going to be involved in the world in some way, and I think pivoting in midlife is generativity on steroids. It's fantastic. Give me your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to go back to something that we are using a lot in the education world right now, which is talking about the growth mindset, and the growth mindset is what we try to teach kids, that, you know, one mistake is not the sign to give up. You know, failure is an opportunity to learn. And the growth mindset involves continuing to be flexible, continuing to know that just being smart, just being talented, is not enough. Right, you need to put in hard work and discipline, and that will cause your brain literally to strengthen the muscle, to keep trying and stay flexible and shaking things up, like we're doing in our midlife. Oh man, it's so great for our brains.
Speaker 2:You know I mean we're, we are promoting flexibility for ourselves, we're being curious, we're staying active. Look, I can't say that, um, it's not overwhelming sometimes. Right, it's overwhelming, it's frustrating yeah.
Speaker 3:And scary, and scary.
Speaker 2:And scary. And you need to be prepared for that and you have to know that will come. But one of the things I do try to remind myself about is how fortunate I am to be here at this time making these choices and charting a new path. I mean, it's really exhilarating.
Speaker 1:It's. You know, we're lucky to be in a position where we can do that and hopefully, it'll work out.
Speaker 1:I want to go back, briefly though, to what you were talking about with young people. I think that's I like to say it is. That's the difference between self-esteem and something I call false esteem. False esteem is when you're made to feel good all the time, no matter what. You just feel good. Everybody makes you feel good. But there's an emptiness to that.
Speaker 1:Self-esteem comes from accomplishment, which comes from hard work and challenging yourself, being willing to make mistakes, learn from those mistakes, grow from those mistakes. It's the hard challenges. I mean. Climbing Mount Fuji is not easy, but you get to the top. You feel real good.
Speaker 1:I haven't done it, but one of my best friends did, and there's a video of him at the top looking in a way he should look exhausted and instead he looks exhilarated in a way I've never seen him in my life. But it's not easy training for months and then doing that and we need to remember that we shouldn't fear real self-esteem and the journey to get there, that getting a trophy for everything is not actually helping us. We need to hear George Carlin did this in one of his last routines we need to hear those all-important words you failed, do it again. You know and challenge yourself to learn right, and that what I love. You're absolutely right. It takes some humility to do this because, you know, after being an esteemed professional for a long time, you start, you know, getting egg on your face every now and then from something you did or didn't know to do or whatever. But the good news is, at our age, I think we can handle that better, would you agree?
Speaker 2:I definitely agree. And if you can't or you're not sure if you can, you're going to find out real quick and you're going to build that muscle and you are going to start learning how to deal with failure and a little egg on your face and get back up.
Speaker 1:And we're not serving anyone well when we're trying to make it, when we're trying to create scenarios where they avoid having to experience those sensations. And and yes, in my, my stage of life, of course I want to hear I'm brilliant all the time, but I don't get that for some reason, and I think I know why it's because I have to learn just like everybody else does.
Speaker 1:But, like you say, it's a great, it's just a spectacular gift at this age to be challenged in this way. We're not stagnating, right, sarah? You and I are not stagnating?
Speaker 2:No, we're not.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, this has been such a great interview. Before we leave, any last thoughts you want to give people out there who are thinking about pivoting in their lives.
Speaker 2:I think the last thing I would say is remember to give yourself grace. You know I love that word, which is actually why I put it in the name of my business. We put so much pressure on ourselves to know the right answer, to have it all figured out before we take that jump, and it just doesn't work that way. And so as you, as you take this leap, remember it takes time to take it all in, it takes time to process, it takes time to figure things out. And just keep giving yourself grace as you work through it, because you can do it.
Speaker 1:I love that and my listeners will be. They're nodding right now because I use the term, the phrase give yourself grace all the time with my clients and I talk about it in my in my podcast regularly. Giving yourself grace doesn't mean allowing yourself a pass. You still have to face what you got to face. Just don't beat yourself up so much for it, am I right?
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, sarah Hackenberg, this has been a joy to have you on the show. I hope you'll come back in a few months and you and I can compare notes and see how we're doing with our midlife changes, which does take a tremendous amount of courage, so I applaud you for that.
Speaker 2:I really do Same to you.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Thank you. So thank you for being with us today. Everybody. I want to thank you so much for listening. If you've enjoyed this, please hit the follow and subscribe button so you'll know when I drop new shows. I have several more people that I'm going to interview who've done pivots and a job recruiter that I'm going to have on, which I think is going to be real helpful. For now, though, thanks for listening. Be well, and I'll catch you next time on the Barrier Busting Podcast.
