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Barrier Busting
The Barrier Busting podcast offers insights, strategies, and inspiring stories that explore practical tips and powerful tools for unlocking our full potential.
Barrier Busting
The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse: Overcoming Relationship Hurdles with Dr. Nicole Zmuda
Licensed Clinical Social Worker and University Professor with a PHD in Human Sexuality, Dr. Nicole Zmuda, offers a captivating discussion on the critical impact of communication patterns in relationships. We explore John Gottman's groundbreaking concept of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse—criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt—as key predictors of relationship challenges.
Discover how the pioneering research by John Gottman has shed light on the intricacies of communication within relationships. We navigate through his findings, emphasizing the significance of recognizing these destructive behaviors and the importance of the "magic ratio," which suggests that a healthy relationship thrives on a balance of five positive interactions to one negative. Dr. Zmuda offers her expert perspective on therapeutic strategies derived from Gottman's work, aimed at cultivating lasting and fulfilling partnerships.
Gain practical tools to transform your relational landscape as we discuss antidotes for overcoming common communication hurdles. With Dr. Zmuda's guidance, we highlight the power of respect, appreciation, and personal accountability in combating the Four Horsemen. Learn how to foster understanding through "I" statements and gentle startups, address defensiveness by taking responsibility, and recognize the complexities of stonewalling. This episode is your roadmap to nurturing a supportive and thriving relational environment.
Are you feeling stuck, trapped by barriers holding you back from reaching your full potential? Well, let's bust through those barriers so that you can live your best life. Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder of Matt Brooks Coaching, and I'm passionate about helping people overcome barriers to achieve success. Join me for insights, strategies and inspiring stories as we explore practical tips and powerful tools to unlock your true potential. This is the Barrier Busting Podcast. Well, hello everybody and welcome back. It is the new year. We are finally into the new year.
Speaker 1:I hope you had a chance to listen to my episode on New Year's Eve resolutions, why we fail at them and how we can make them stick. Seriously, like 7% of New Year's resolutions actually work. Think about that. How do you make that work If you're thinking about, if you're looking back at last year, thinking about things you want to change, and looking back and looking forward to this year, making plans, but you're worried about following through because you have a history, as we all do, of not following through with our New Year's resolutions? I have a solution for you Get a life coach. Seriously, I happen to be one, by the way. In case you want to work with me, you go to my website, scroll down to the calendar. That's mattbrookscoachingcom. Scroll down to the calendar. Click on a date and time that works for you and get a free 30-minute discovery session where we can get to know each other, decide if we're a good fit. I'd love to hear your story and see if we can work together, but coaches will help you. Stay on track. We'll not only work with you to really clarify your intentions so that you're really clear on what you want to achieve, but we'll also work as accountability partners and motivators. So get yourself a coach. You want to make those changes. We'll help you with that.
Speaker 1:Now, that's not what today's show is about, though. Today's show is about this thing called Gottman's Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I know sounds pretty dark, right, it's because the Four Horsemen is a reference to the Book of Revelation, and those Four Horsemen are not people we want in our lives. But this is a little different and we're going to talk about. I have a special guest today who's going to really help us understand what this is about. Now I got to come clean.
Speaker 1:This guest of mine today is truly one of my favorite people on the planet. As many of you know, I went back in my 50s to get a master's in social work, which, by the way, is a kick. Go back to school in your 50s, it's a real kick. But anyways, she was one of my professors. She was my favorite professor and she was my advisor, and what made her my favorite professor was, first of all, nothing got by her, Nothing. She's really smart, she knows her stuff and she got a lot of respect from me because I really got my money's worth out of working with her and I'm really grateful to her.
Speaker 1:My guest today is Dr Nicole Zamuda, who is currently an assistant professor of social work at Fairleigh Dickinson University in New Jersey. Dr Zamuda holds a bachelor's degree in art and psychology and a master's degree in social work from Marywood University and additionally she has a master's in education and a PhD in human sexuality from the Center for Human Sexuality Studies at Widener University. I hope I said that one right. Dr Zamuda is a licensed clinical social worker with almost 20 years experience in substance use disorder treatment and behavioral health care. I should mention that, in addition to her teaching right now, she does continue her work as a clinician, and I'm going to ask her about that in a minute. For those of us that studied with her. We lovingly referred to her as Dr Z. Dr Z, it's great to have you on the Barrier Busty podcast. Thanks for taking the time. It's nice to see you.
Speaker 2:It's so great to be here. Thank you so much for that warm introduction, Matthew. You got me all in my feels.
Speaker 1:Did I get you all?
Speaker 2:a flutter there. Well, it's genuine.
Speaker 1:It's genuine, and I know that some students give you a hard time because you do things like actually great, you know. You do things like actually call out mistakes, and but what they don't realize is that you never once set anybody up for failure and you always I don't know how you make the time, but you make the time Like if I was struggling with a paper, like you'd help me research it. It's amazing stuff I would never have gotten from my professors way back when I went to school before. I'm not going to mention, because that was a long time ago, but I want to ask you a couple of questions about you before we get into this topic of the four horsemen. It seems to me that you caught this psychology social worker bug really early on in your life, right? So what brought you to this whole field of study?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you're right about kind of catching the study of humans, study of human behavior, early on. Interestingly fun fact, I was originally going to go into law. I did mock trial in high school and I thought that I was like, yeah, I thought I was going to go to law school and become an attorney, and so maybe that's kind of where I get my level of precision and attention to detail, but nonetheless I ended up going into. I went into an educational path that positioned me to pursue art therapy professionally and that was kind of the original goal and it really came from. You know, just, I think you know, sometimes the professions pick you. We have these personality styles and these kind of natural strengths that make us good fits for certain careers, and I was always someone that enjoyed listening to people, enjoyed helping people, and so it just kind of made sense for me to go into the helping profession and so that's kind of how I got into the general field of, you know, helping, helping professions, helping people.
Speaker 1:Well, I can't see you as a litigator. I mean, if you were a litigator I could see that you would be a tough nut to crack, but I can't see you, knowing your persona, as really being that kind of person. But if any of your current students happen to be listening today, I want to comment on that precision. You want that precision from your professor. You're paying serious money to get an education, not just get told you're wonderful. It's the person that tells you what you don't want to hear. That's the person you can trust. Should I repeat that? Let me repeat that it's the person that tells you what you don't want to hear. That's the person you can trust. Ponder that If you want me to do an episode on that in the future, shoot me an email, matt, at mattbrookscoachingcom, and I will Now back to Dr Zamuda.
Speaker 1:After you did your master's in social work, if I have this story correct in my mind, you decided you wanted to study human sexuality and you wanted to get a PhD in it. But you found out that in order to get that PhD, you would first have to get another master's degree. Right, I mean, most of us would have said, nah, I'm not doing that, but you somehow went okay, hold my beer, I'll do it. I mean, that's a commitment, that's a lot of years and a lot of hard work. So what was it about human sexuality that made you that passionate that you'd be willing to put yourself through those rigors?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for asking.
Speaker 2:So when I found myself with my first big girl job after my MSW, I was working in a rehabilitation program for adults with substance use disorders, and part of the work that I ended up doing was facilitating a process group for individuals who acknowledged struggling in some way, shape or form with their sexual behavior, their sexual relationships.
Speaker 2:But as I did it, I realized that there was so much about human sexuality and how sexual relationships were negotiated that I just didn't know and I felt like I was doing the clients that I worked with a disservice because I felt so ignorant. Human sexuality is a huge field. I felt so ignorant. Human sexuality is a huge field and I think that's why the program that I attended builds in that additional master's, because it is so vast and so specialized that, yes, it was important that I had a master's degree that would allow me to do clinical work. Because that I had a master's degree that would allow me to do clinical work. Because, you know, the kind of trajectory that I wanted to go on was to pursue this additional degree and be able to do sex therapy right, be able to work clinically with people in this area. But I needed that educational foundation first, and so that's where that second master's came in.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, it makes a lot of sense because we, for some reason, we're still afraid to talk about sex and like what's, like one of our primary motivators in life. What, what is in our psyche all the time? Stop lying about it, people, it's there, you know. It's a question of how we process it, how we accept it, how we learn about ourselves, right. So it makes tremendous sense to me, but kudos to you for making that level of a commitment, wow. Now, in addition, I mentioned to your teaching at Fairleigh Dickinson. Right now you are working as a clinician. Tell us briefly about your work as a clinician now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So I'm still kind of in the work of substance use disorder treatment. I'm currently contracting with a program that's based out of Philadelphia that specializes in the care of substance use disorders and I'm facilitating a general outpatient group via telehealth, which is really nice for individuals who identify, as you know, lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer, and it's been really wonderful to work with individuals in recovery again and specifically individuals who may have some additional challenges in recovery from their sexual identity. The space that we create in that group is just really wonderful and it's it's so rewarding to work with like a good working group.
Speaker 1:Do you look at substance abuse as a disease?
Speaker 2:as a disease? That's a really good question, matt and I, you know, I think it's where we certainly have a public health issue. I believe that there are individuals where there is that genetic predisposition, but I also believe and have worked with individuals that you know don't have that family history and yet develop the disorder from, you know, early trauma or challenges in their environment. Right, it's kind of that nurture versus nature argument. So I think yes, and I think that's probably like the shortest answer.
Speaker 1:I think that's a good answer, because I think there's still a lot of debate about this. And is it a disease, or is it something we bring on ourselves and it's not? I think it's in terms of anything we could bring on ourselves. It's really more, as you said, a reaction to trauma more often.
Speaker 1:It does not mean people are weak, is what I'm really hoping to get at. You know, we tend to decide weakness is certain characteristics, and no there's, you know. You know how many alcoholics are in Mensa, for instance. I mean it's right, so all right. Well, let's get on to our topic a little bit, and this is a topic you brought to my attention which I find really fascinating Gottman's Four Horsemen. Is this about death? What is this about? Is this about the end of times? What is Gottman's Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse?
Speaker 2:I mean you're not wrong in that, Matthew, right? I mean with the same name. It's hard to avoid those comparisons. But I think you know Gottman did that intentionally. So he you know, and I can talk a little bit more about his work, but Gottman is a relationship researcher, in short, and he coined the phrase four horsemen, or he appropriated the phrase four horsemen of the apocalypse to emphasize that these specific behaviors, these four behavioral patterns and communication will signal the end times of a relationship if they're not addressed.
Speaker 1:So this is about relationships. This is about relationships.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and things that kill relationships right. Exactly Yep, yep. And, to be more specific, the work originated from his research with married heterosexual couples, but his work has really expanded over time to include gay and lesbian couples, unmarried couples and also family systems, to really understand the drivers of successful and healthy relationships in all of those different systems, and the important point here is that, regardless of our sexuality and who we're involved with in our family systems, these four things are bad for everybody, and for things that everybody kind of does right.
Speaker 1:We're all guilty of this at some point. We're going to talk a little better, but first of all, when did this research come out? Was this relatively recent, or is Gottman still alive? I mean, where's this in the spectrum of psychology?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Gottman is still alive, he's still doing his work. He and his wife, Julie are still running what is called the Gottman Institute. The Gottman Institute actually started as his love lab, so he has been doing his research since the seventies his, his apartment style.
Speaker 1:Oh how seventies, is that name right?
Speaker 2:Right, the love lab. So he had, um, he built an apartment style laboratory that he used for his research at the university of Washington that he that he did with couples, and they would come in and they would just kind of like hang out for a week, and there were all of these cameras situated around the apartment and they would just collect all of this data, all of this observational data. They would collect biomarker data and physiologic data like heart rate and urine samples. So it was really empirically based. Like there was a lot of effort that went into this, but he's been doing this, like I said, since the seventies.
Speaker 1:Okay, so real quick, just give us the brief outline. What are the four horsemen of of the apocalypse, according to Gottman?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the four horsemen, um are, as he described, the kind of things that would predict dissolution in relationships, right, the kind of things that would predict dissolution in relationships, right, they're the things that, through his research, he found that, when present and unaddressed, would lead to the breakdown, the breakup, the end of any particular relationship, and those are criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling and contempt bitterness, stonewalling and contempt, aha, those are all things that sound familiar to me, that I've probably done and have had done to me, right?
Speaker 1:I mean, these are, these are not uncommon things, right? That's the kind of the point of this, right right, right, exactly.
Speaker 2:We've all engaged in them at some point in our lives. So I think it's important to kind of normalize this. This is these things happen, but you know, hopefully the goal is to become more aware of them so that you can make some changes.
Speaker 1:Well and I think that's part of his study doesn't just stop at these are the problems. He also has solutions to these problems that he calls antidotes. Right, right, give us a without telling us what the antidotes are. We're going to break that down after the break, but there are solutions to fixing these things if we get really bad at them. Right, talk about that briefly, please.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly so Gottman. Gottman is a therapist in addition to a researcher and he his research, really kind of started from recognizing high divorce rates, not only in our country but kind of worldwide, and so he really felt ethically bound to find a way to change that right, find a way to help marriages, to help couples, and so he, through his research, really looked to understand the drivers of successful relationships and what contributed to the demise of relationships, and that's kind of where he identified these four horsemen. But there was so much that came from his work. He's got a whole theory that we're now calling the sound relationship house model and through that theory there are specific interventions, there's training courses that therapists can go through to get trained in the Gottman model. And I think, more popularly I don't know if you've heard this, matthew, but his work inspired the magic ratio right when for every one negative interaction that you have with someone, it takes five positive reactions to kind of counter that. That comes from Gottman's work.
Speaker 1:Really? No, I had not heard that. So for every one negative interaction you got to pay back the bank. Five positive interactions.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, he found that in the couples that were stronger, that they had a disproportionate amount of positive interactions happening in their relationship, five times more than the negative interactions, and so that's where that ratio comes from.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, we are going to take a quick break and then we're going to go and we're going to break down these four horsemen and we're going to give you the antidotes. So hang tight.
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Speaker 1:Okay, back with Dr Nicole Zamuda. We're talking about Gottman's Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which has to do with killing relationships. So let's break these four horsemen down right now. Number one criticism. How do we define criticism? I mean, we all know what criticism is, but in this case, how is it defined?
Speaker 2:It's really defined much the same as we would define it in our lay conversations. So criticism, per Gottman, is when you attack an individual's character or their personality rather than express concern or issue with a particular behavior or source of the conflict. And in criticism oftentimes we hear things like well, you always or you never write these kind of sweeping generalizations when describing what another person is doing or not doing, and you know it can sound something like well, you never listened to me or you never asked me how my day was Right these kind of blanket generalizations instead of taking issue with, like, one particular behavior or interaction.
Speaker 1:So, for those listening right now, let's talk about how criticism differs from constructive feedback, from both the perspective of the person giving it and the perspective of the person receiving it, because there is a difference between criticism and constructive feedback, and I know in my life I rely on my wife to give me constructive feedback. There are times when it's criticism and I just put the hand up, but I do rely. We need to hear feedback too, so how does it criticism and feedback differ?
Speaker 2:Yeah, criticism differs from constructive feedback often in terms of tone and the content of what's being said. So, for example, as I mentioned, criticism involves attacking a person's character you know who they are while constructive feedback really focuses in on, you know, when you left a dirty dish out on the table right, as opposed to saying why are you so messy or why are you so lazy and you never clean up, and there's also, like I said, a difference in the tone. So criticism is going to be an attack, it's going to be, you know, almost like an assassination of a person's character, whereas the constructive feedback comes at the issue or the interaction from a neutral standpoint. Maybe one of curiosity. You know, I noticed that you left the dish out on the dining room table, and I'm using this interaction because this happens all the time in my relationship, you know like did you run out of time to put it in the sink?
Speaker 2:You know? Was it a busy morning, but I you know I want to hit this from both sides, though did you run out of time to put it in the sink?
Speaker 1:You know, was it a busy morning, but I, you know, I want to hit this from both sides though, because I think relationships problems in relationships comes from not only how things are approached but how things are received, and sometimes you can be giving constructive feedback and there's an immediate pugnacious response. That's often because of the buildup of all the stuff, the negative things that happen in your relationship, you know. So what advice do you have for people receiving the feedback in terms about being disciplined enough to determine whether it's constructive feedback or criticism?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good one. So I don't want to get too much into defensiveness yet because I think you know there's some element of that other horseman that can rear its ugly head.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. But I think part of the um, part of what I would say, is, you know, kind of being aware, um of what you're hearing and checking in with the other person. So there are folks in the relationship world who talk about um. I think it's Hendrix who talks about how to repeat back what you're hearing so that you're not responding with what you're perceiving it as right. So what I heard you say was and then try to repeat back exactly what your partner said to you versus what your interpretation of that is, because I think our interpretations are kind of our filter, right, communication is a two-way street. Our filter can affect how we hear it, what we hear and, most definitely, how we respond. So I think you know taking a pause and saying, okay, well, here's specifically, here's what I heard you say to me.
Speaker 1:That's great advice and actually it brought me to my training as a therapist. Because we do that right. We will reflect back to people what they're saying, and I've noticed in my own practice already I'll reflect back how I'm hearing someone say something, and it's happened a couple of times now where the clients has said to me you know, hearing you say it that way makes me think of it a little differently. Right, so that is a that's probably a constructive thing to do in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Now tell me what the antidote is for contempt.
Speaker 1:So the antidote for criticism yes, criticism, sorry, we're on criticism. Sorry, I'm looking at the next one while I'm talking about the first one. So antidote for criticism yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what you want to do is, instead of so, if you're the person, kind of giving the feedback if I want to approach my husband and take issue with the dirty glass that's left out on the kitchen table Instead of coming in like a bull in a china shop, because this isn't the first time that it's happened. Right, I've got to keep that emotional reaction.
Speaker 1:You got to keep your guns in your holsters, as I say. Right, that's a beautiful metaphor. I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got to keep your guns in your holsters, as I say. Right, that's a beautiful metaphor, I love it. Yeah, you got to keep your guns in your holster and you want to use what Gottman calls a gentle startup. So you want to use I statements and you want to make sure that you are addressing this specific behavior, right. So I noticed that you left the dish on the kitchen table, right. That's very neutral, very objective, and then you can follow it up with. That makes me feel frustrated because I need to then clean it up after you leave for the day. Is there a way that you could be more mindful? Or my request of you is you know, can you be more mindful to put your dishes away after breakfast? Very different than why can't you just clean up after yourself? Why do I have to tell you 10 times to put the dish in the sink, right? Simple example, but hopefully folks can hear the difference in that delivery.
Speaker 1:It takes a lot of discipline, because boy can we get contemptuous of each other when we're in a relationship which brings us to number two on the list contempt right. This is often considered the most destructive of the four horsemen right. How is contempt defined and why is it considered the most destructive of the four horsemen right? How is contempt defined and why is it?
Speaker 2:considered the most destructive. Yeah, so contempt is contempt manifests through feelings of superiority or belittling in that relationship. So it really kind of is reflective of this power imbalance. And they're so destructive because these behaviors really kind of belie a level oftentimes of resentment in the relationship, whether it's I resent how much money my partner makes or I resent how well they get along with their family, or an inherent insecurity that one of the persons in the relationship has. Whatever it is. It's just this sense of I'm better than you or you're not as good as, or you're lucky to be with me, right, like that's not a good foundation for a relationship and generally, when that's present, that's a sure signal that it's on its way to dissolve, which is probably for the best, because that's not fodder for a healthy relationship.
Speaker 1:Yes, but there are antidotes right. There are things we can try if our relationships get to that point. What are they?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So if you notice contempt showing up in your relationship, right, maybe there is an issue that's gone unresolved in the relationship and it's kind of breeding some of this resentment and frustration. Think back to what we were talking about before with that magic ratio, right, for every one negative interaction, you've got to counter that with five positive interactions with five positive interactions. The antidote for contempt is through intentionally creating an environment of respect and appreciation within the relationship, and so it's being deliberate about acknowledging to your partner in not necessarily in the context of conflict, but certainly if conflict happens. You want to try to express appreciation or see the other person's side, but just generally, on a day-to-day, expressing gratitude or thanks for what your partner brings to the table or contributes to the relationship. Right, I like that because what they're bringing to the table or contributes to the relationship right, like I.
Speaker 1:like that because what they're bringing to the table, like I, I've noticed in my life when I've been contemptuous to people often it's because they're not bringing what I think they should be bringing, but it turns out they're bringing things to the table Right. So, uh, yeah, I think this is really important. Um and, and frankly, contempt comes, as you said, from looking down at people. So get off your damn high horse, be disciplined to get off your damn high horse right and see each other for who you are and appreciate each other right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you raise a good point in terms of like what, recognizing that this kind of comes from not seeing what you want to see from the other person, and we can get so caught up in our own expectations and the things that we're not getting that we overlook the things that we are getting. And if we can turn our attention to those things, they can make a real difference internally in terms of how we're feeling in the relationship, but also for the relationship health overall.
Speaker 1:Love it, love it. Okay, number three on the hit list of four horsemen is defensiveness. Who doesn't have a bit of this in them? So define defensiveness and let's just start to find it. How is this defined?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so defensiveness is a way that we, if we are on the receiving end of feedback, it's a way that we shift blame or responsibility to other people people in the relationship, people outside of the relationship, people at work right Like we can shift that blame anywhere. And it really is blame anywhere and it really is a lack of accountability. And I think you talked about, you know, coaching as a way to help keep people accountable.
Speaker 1:Thanks for the plug.
Speaker 2:You got it. I think, listen, I think everybody needs an accountability buddy.
Speaker 1:That's the language that I like to use An accountability buddy. I'm going to borrow that. Thank you.
Speaker 2:You have it. It just rolls off your tongue, but yeah, so defensiveness is when you're not taking accountability and you're saying it's everybody else's fault, but mine.
Speaker 1:Okay, but there's another element to that, and that's when you're being attacked, and you're being attacked unfairly and you can be defensive, then Is that okay or is there a better? You know, I mean, we're going to get to the antidotes, but I mean, how does that fall into this category of you know someone's pulling contempt on you when you're being defensive? Right, I mean, these four horsemen don't work independent of each other. They all work together, don't they right?
Speaker 2:yeah, and gotman's got a whole thing about like these, how these all kind of come together to form these relationship characteristics or these categories of communication patterns and styles and relationships. That's for another conversation. But you're right, if someone's coming at you with contempt and they're attacking you, they're criticizing you, who wouldn't get defensive?
Speaker 2:And I think a lot of that is natural and it's appropriate to set boundaries, but I think in terms of the context of the conversation, right, so we can see defensiveness. You talked earlier about that filter. So I might say to my husband if he's coming home late and he will every now and then come home late, and so I'll say to him, oh you're late again, not intending that as a criticism, just kind of noticing oh you're late again and he might, because his filter is such that he hears it as a criticism. He might get defensive for no reason.
Speaker 1:Because he's remembering you give him a hard time about that glass on the counter that he left that morning right. So no, I get it, I get it. So did we talk about what are the antidotes? What are other antidotes here?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the antidote is to accept responsibility where you can, and that is really difficult. When I work with individuals who are struggling with relationship issues, or when I've worked with couples I always talk about. You know, you've got to keep your side of the street clean. There's more than one person creating a mess in the relationship, but you have the only thing you can control is your side of that mess, and so, even if the other person is responsible for 90%, you still have 10% that you can be responsible or take accountability for. And it can be really tough to be the bigger person, as it were, and say you're right, I should have called you or you're right, I should have put the dish in the sink. Even when the other person's life seems a mess and is creating a lot of issues within the relationship, you still have to take accountability. That's the antidote for that defensiveness, and that can be really hard when there's an imbalance.
Speaker 1:Sure, that can be hard for anybody. Really All right. Last one on our list, and this is the one that I personally find the most obnoxious. I really just this is the one that sets me over the falls. If you know what I mean, it's called stonewalling. What is the definition, what does it look like and why does it typically happen?
Speaker 2:I think stonewalling is really interesting because part of my training as a therapist has been on really understanding the role that trauma plays in our lives and especially in relationships, and what we know about stonewalling from Gottman's work is that it is a defense mechanism similar to any other defense mechanisms that people might be familiar with from the psychology field, like denial, rationalization, justification, etc. When we typically see stonewalling, it's in the context of that conflict, where someone is feeling overwhelmed, feeling overwhelmed, emotionally flooded, and they need to disengage from the conflict or from the argument because they're so reactive, because they're so triggered. What it looks like is maybe it does look like rudeness and it can be.
Speaker 1:some people can just be stonewalling because they're jerks right, like I'm not going to say it's always, but but it's important to know that really there can be a different reason here, and most often is, and it's not that they're being jerks, they're kind of shutting down right.
Speaker 2:Right, because it's a protective mechanism for them. So what it looks like is kind of avoiding eye contact. Maybe they are giving one word answers like uh-huh, right, they're not engaging in the conversation. Or maybe they're just kind of walking away from the conflict altogether.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a rough one because it's hard to determine which. And there's a bigger issue that I'm going to do a show on someday. Maybe you can come on it. It's the concept of ghosting, which I think is really one of the most horrible things you can do as a person. Have the courage to tell somebody you've got a problem, don't ghost them. But we'll get into that another time. What are the?
Speaker 2:antidotes for stonewalling. So, because stonewalling comes from being overwhelmed emotionally, right, Emotionally flooded, We've got to think back to ways of self-care and self-soothing. You had a dietician on your podcast a little bit ago and she talked about mindfulness and mindful eating a little bit ago and she talked about mindfulness and mindful eating. Mindfulness is a great skill to have to notice when you're starting to get overwhelmed, when the emotions are rising. The more you can be aware of that, the more you can engage in things like deep breathing, progressive muscle relaxation. You can even say you know what. In things like deep breathing, progressive muscle relaxation, you can even say you know what. I'm starting to feel a little overwhelmed right now. Can we come back to this conversation in maybe like five, 10 minutes? I need to just take a break, calm myself down, whatever you need to do to kind of self-soothe in that situation, but the important thing, right, it's not ghosting, you don't leave and then you never come back, right? You've got to come back to the conversation to resolve it.
Speaker 1:That's key, and actually I think timeouts are really helpful. When you hit the wall with your partner or a family member and you're just, you know, you get to a point where you're so pissed off that nothing's making sense. You just got to step aside for a minute, you know so that so pissed off that nothing's making sense. You just got to step aside for a minute, you know so. That's great.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, we've been running long, but here's the good news. I've got one more question for you, but I want everybody to know she doctors and we was coming back for a second episode in which we are going to take this concept of the four horsemen and broaden it out of romantic relationships and family relationships into the sort of this polarized society we're living in right now and how these four horsemen are getting in our way of being a more collaborative society. But first, before we get off of today's topic, I just want to ask you what are some small practical challenges or exercises that the listeners could do this week to reduce even one of these destructive behaviors? What's a small thing we all could do right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so hopefully folks who are listening have been able to maybe recognize some of these horsemen in their relationships and paid attention to the antidotes that might be more appropriate for them. But I believe that practicing that daily appreciation is a really good start because not only does that target contempt, which is the most destructive horseman of the four, it also has positive implications for overall relationship health because it's fostering gratitude and respect. So, every day being intentional about expressing appreciation or thanks for something that your partner has done, like thank you for making my coffee this morning, thank you for bringing in the garbage can from the curb right, whatever, it is to be intentional and make that acknowledgement.
Speaker 1:And that costs nothing. That's simple. I mean I, you know, I married a Jersey girl and I'm a passionate person myself. So there might be some fights in our house. There might be some fights that you don't want to see because they're pretty serious. But you know, I think we're both pretty good at like the next day, making sure to put a little bomb on the, on the wound you know for each other, and I think that's, at the end of the day, that's really what's most important is that you somehow, despite we're going to get in arguments, we're going to have contempt, we're going to be defensive, we're going to have all these things because we're in an intimate relationship, because we're close to each other. Familiarity breeds contempt. Period, end of sentence. But we also have to take responsibility for not only our own behaviors but for caring If we truly care about the other person here, to take a little bit of responsibility for how they feel and how we make them feel. So yeah, we're going to get an ugly fights, but we can stop, take a deep breath and say but you know what I do love you, or you know you, thanks for taking care of that thing yesterday. That really saved me a few minutes and you know you thanks for taking care of that thing yesterday. That really saved me a few minutes, and you know, whatever, find a way to do that, okay. Well, we are. That's all we got for today. We're coming back next week with Dr Nicole Zamuda to talk about this some more. So thank you for being on today. Dr Z Um, if you are listening, this is my latest offer.
Speaker 1:If you have a topic that you would like me to cover on this podcast, shoot me an email. I'd love to hear from you. It's matt at mattbrookscoachingcom. Shoot me an email, let me know what you'd like me to cover and I will do my best to cover it. For now, we're just going to, like I said, talk next week about some ideas about how these four horsemen relate to us in a broader sense of society. So I hope you'll tune in for that. I'm glad you were here today. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. For now, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Barrier Busting Podcast. Thank you.
